Finally, as for woman. I believe there were at least two woman at the day of Pentecost. If they were all in one accord in one place…. They were all filled….

Just things to think about.

“i never heard anything about spiritual gifts being necessary for salvation or being “a separate part” of salvation.”

Glad to hear that. As I said, many, not all.

how?

i’ve seen them in action. i’ve seen prophecy, for sure.
and i speak in tongues.

yes, i belong to one of those churches you might call “pentecostal” or “charismatic.” i never heard anything about spiritual gifts being necessary for salvation or being “a separate part” of salvation. i agree that the gifts are just that, gifts. and i absolutely agree that none of them mean anything without love.

but i think it’s way out of line to say that the gifts have ceased just because the apostles are dead.

and not every pentecostal church places too much emphasis on the gifts of the spirit.

otherwise, great post. adios, brother in christ.

I’m sure you don’t want to miss an 15-year-old take on the objections, right?

1 Cor 13:8 is not looked at closely enough here. Perhaps one might look into “knowledge” more deeply if that is used as a cessaionist argument. Furthermore, the “prophesying’ described in the NT, different from the apostles’ work, may well be around, still. This would then also have implications on the interpretation of the mentioning of “tongues”" in this verse. Wayne Grudem, wo, by the way, is an excellent example that if one has a charismatic theology cc. gifts and the Holy Spirit that doesn’t hinder him from solid and even scholarly thinking, Reformed doctrine and a Bible’based (as opposed to the infamous “experience based”) view of the Christian life, has written an entire book about the gift of prophecy in the NT, that sheds some helpful light.
I have found that the “if we’re going to speak up more positively on miraculous gifts instead of retreating to a position of ignorance toward verses that mention them” – fear ceases when one sees how a charismatic theology lived out will not necesssarily contradict serious thinking and theology.
By the way, speaking of necessary: if one acknowledges that the gift of tongues is still around then it is no problem at all to say that, if it comes from God and meets the tests of scripture, is an “evidence” of God doing his work of salvation in this person. The problem starts if some, on the fringe of the charismatics or “charismaniacs”, start to require it as “Necessary” evidence. A clearer distinction there would be helpful.

1) When do the gifts cease? According to Ephesians 4, there will be Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, and Pastors and Teachers…UNTIL (key word) the Body of Christ reaches maturity and unity in the faith. Has the Church reached that point yet? No.

2) If we are to no longer prophesy or speak in tongues, then we must reject the rest of the gifts also (evangelism, mercy, healing, etc.).

3) Women are not forbidden to speak in tongues or prophesy in the congregation (1 Cor 11 clearly allows prayer and prophesy when done appropriately). In the context, Paul appears to be speaking about teaching, thus reaffirming what he says in 1 Timothy 2:12.

4) Tongues vs. languages: Some have argued (and I am not clear here) that there is a difference between the tongues mentioned in Acts 2 and those in 1 Cor 12 & 14. The former is obviously languages, the latter *may* be interpereted as “spiritual language.”

1Co 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. (ESV)

Does the “no one understands him” refer to no one in the congregation, or no one period?

Now that I have said that….

I definitely think that many Pentecostals place experience above Scripture. It is a shame. And I agree 100% that we should love one another. But until we reach the point where we are perfected in love, the gifts are still for use.

What I am wondering is: How is it obvious that prophesy and knowledge have ceased with the apostalic age? My dad has been studying church history and has talked about the montanists (I may have confused the name). This movement was very widespread and looked much like the charismatic movement. It had much error and excesses, but people like Origen seemed to have no problem with the movement. Not alot is known about what all the beliefs were, but it appears that some church authorities grew alarmed at the excess and called all of it bad. In fact, I believe it was around this time that the apostle John’s writings were looked at warily because of he talks of the Holy Spirit. So basically what I’m saying is don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
Another thing is: if tongues and prophesy have ceased, why did Paul tell us how to use them? If they were only for the apostolic age, why did he not write a letter concerning these things for the people at that time and not worry about putting it in for us ages down who don’t need to see it? Another thing, Romans 12:6-8 mentions prophesy along with ministry, teaching, exorting, giving, leading, and showing mercy. Why would Paul mention a gift we cannot have with ones we can unless, suppose some of us do have a gift of prophesy (by which I mean God shows us things not as he did the prophets of the old testament but like Agabus [Acts 21:10-11] who prophesied but not infallibly).
Ok, I know, a long comment, and who will take the time to read it anyway, but I just am a wondering person who’s not sure about all of this either. And I really do think this post was great.