“Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts …”

This is one of many passages that refers to the concept of natural law I am talking about. Paul is clearly referring to people who are not familiar with God’s word (“do not have the law”), but despite this, (“even though they do not have the law”), they “do by nature things required by the law” since it is “written on their hearts.”

So natural law is a Biblical concept that Paul (and others) recognize. Now, this natural law doesn’t fill in for salvation–it doesn’t tell us about God’s word, it doesn’t tell us that Jesus died for us, etc.–but this natural law–which God has written in every person’s heart–does tell us of some things. What are some of these things?

First, we are able to recognize that a God exists. (“the heavens declare the glory of God, the skies proclaim the work of his hands”; “the fool in his heart says there is no God.”) We are also able to recognize that murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, and marriage is something that is inherently–and I stress the word “inherently”–between a man and a woman, and there can logically be no such thing as a true same-sex marriage. We are perhaps even able to recognize that human nature is inherently evil and in need of spiritual help.

It is only when someone rejects and suppresses this basic, basic natural law—that which God has engrained in our conciences and hearts–that we see what we do today–murdering your own baby, gay “marriage,” etc.

Gay marriage does not in itself directly come from a rejection of the Bible as the word of God. After all, Muslims believe as we do on this issue, and they reject the Bible as the word of God. Once again, things like gay marriage are a result of a rejection not just of the Bible, but of _natural law_ and the knowledge that a higher being exists.

Now what happens when a Christian argues that gay marriage and abortion are wrong, but argues that being pro life and pro traditional marriage are only “Biblical concepts”? That Christian throws natural law right out the window, and essentially undermines his own effort to convince others of his viewpoint. Most other people do not accept the Bible as an authority. They don’t care what it says about marriage or abortion. When a Christian defines marriage and abortion as a “Biblical concept,” that allows an unbeliever to say, “abortion is a religious issue! Gay marriage is a religious issue!”

We see examples of this left and right. The Catholic John Kerry used it as an excuse during his 2004 campaign. Just the other day, 55 Catholic Democrats in Congress issued a statement calling abortion a “religious issue.” I can not tell you how many times I have heard the argument from brainwashed students in college classrooms that gay marriage should be ok, because opposition to gay marriage is a religious issue/belief! And I wanted to bang my head on my desk and say, No! It’s not! We don’t need to read the Bible to know that gay marriage is wrong. We should know from natural law that gay marriage is wrong.

If a person wants to bring the message of salvation to an unbeliever, that’s wonderful. Hopefully Christ will bring that unbeliever to faith. Unfortunately, pointing to the Bible when it comes to gay marriage and abortion not only does not work when it comes to debating the issue with unbelievers, it actually harms the Christian viewpoint in the long run.

I’m not discounting the Bible at all. I’m recognizing what the Bible teaches about natural law, and I’m saying that by ignoring natural law, Christians undermine their own beliefs. Think about the creation/evolution issue. As Christians, we know that evolution can’t be true because of what the Bible says. That is the foundation of our belief. But we recognize that it is useless to point to the Bible when it comes to debating athiests, because they do not accept the Bible as an authority. That is why we argue from a scientific standpoint as well. The same goes for natural law and issues like gay marriage, etc.

I hope that clears up my thoughts on the issue.

But we want to bring about a change in our culture by growing leaders who are Christ and Cross-centered, able to take on politics, life, and religion. We want Christian young people who have a biblical worldview. We want young men and women who do not allow a divide in their life between mind and heart. We want them to be Christian through and through.

Now, Derek, I think you are also mistaken about the Bible. Yes, we do have our conscience, but, really, how would we know the gospel without first knowing that we had sinned? We here in the United States do have the Bible, so we should not put it down in any way. We wouldn’t appreciate the gospel if we didn’t know right and wrong!

Now, your argument is that we already know right and wrong, and to a degree, yes, we do. And you’re right, the Bible is about salvation–but salvation includes understanding we are sinners. The Bibles tells us and gives us a moral law.

To conclude, there is no reason to say that the Bible is only good for the salvation message (as you’re defining it). We have the Bible–so we have more than just our consciences.

First, I strongly agree with his point about Tim’s statement “We believe that America is the most Godly nation on the face of the earth.” I’m afraid I don’t understand how anyone can say that of a nation that has murdered millions of its unborn, and is now on the brink of completely collapsing in on all “gay rights” issues. Everywhere we turn, we see that our culture and society is completely immersed in all the wrong things. Bad language, promiscuity, x-rated material, crime, etc.–all these things have become so rampant, they completely saturate our current society. We are not a Godly nation, much less the most Godly nation on earth.

Second of all, One Salient already pointed out some poll numbers. I think it’s important to add that even though many people identify themselves as “Christians” in polls, they’re not. They may think they are, but their beliefs put them firmly in the “non believer” camp. For example, I remember reading about some poll that showed that a vast majority of people responding did not believe there was such a thing as “absolute morality.”

Kierstyn wrote: “America WAS founded on God and the belief in God.”

Maybe so, but a belief in God doesn’t necessarily equal either a belief in Christianity or a “Christian worldview.”

“and the republican base also stands for biblical concepts. (I.E., Pro Life, Marriage between a man and a woman etc…)”

This is slightly off topic, but I think people need to stop referring to those two issues (abortion and marriage) as being “Biblical concepts.” When you do so, you play right into liberals who claim that these things are “religious issues” that should not be decided by politicians or whatever.

Sure, the Bible is against these things. But we don’t need the Bible to tell us that murder is wrong, and we don’t need the Bible to tell us that same-sex marriage is ridiculous. We know these things from natural law–the law that God has “written in our hearts,” (i.e. concience) I’m not dismissing the Bible in any way, but I’m saying there are some things we may know are wrong, and we may know they are wrong from natural law. We should be arguing more from that standpoint on these two issues, and let the Bible serve the purpose God wrote it for: the salvation of souls.

America WAS founded on God and the belief in God.

Remember the Mayflower Compact? and our early documents? The Declaration of Independence? the US Constitution? from what I gather the goal of ROC is to bring America back to its founding…being God.

Just because a POLL came out with some numbers doesn’t mean that they polled EVERYONE in the US. I for one did not get polled, my family didn’t and I doubt that my friends and their friends did. See, not everyone participates in polls. So I tend to devalue their credibility.

We DO know however that the republican base has quite a few Christians, and the republican base also stands for biblical concepts. (I.E., Pro Life, Marriage between a man and a woman etc…)from looking at the election map MOST of the USA is RED. (aka, people that are either christians or support concepts such as marriage between a mand and a woman). As far as I can tell, we are not in the minority. The problem we are having today is that not enough of us ACT.

You DO have good points about the Bible, thats true. HOWEVER, we need to get Christians involved in making a difference, and that is where I believe ROC is going to be an AWESOME tool! Getting Christian Teens involved in making a difference and changing our culture BACK to the Bible. Filling the voids in our society to change for the better. Its something that I have been blogging about for a very long time.

That is what ROC is trying to accomplish. Christians educating other Christians so we can all go out and make a differnce.

Finally, about America not being the Church. While America the country probably isn’t, The Ameican Christians are part of the Church.

Thats all for now…
kp

I have a major MAJOR problem with what you’re trying to do here.

First of all, let me examine what you’ve actually written:

In a world like ours, we have a huge problem–too many Christians without a Biblical worldview. It’s scary how many Christians divide their lives into two parts. Their mind is for themselves, and their heart is for God. And unfortuntately, they don’t listen to the Scripture that tells us to give our heart, soul, and mind to the Lord.

I can “sort of” say Amen to this. My problem is that I believe that a person’s heart cannot be set on God without their mind set on God at the same time. The idea that you can have one without the other is unsupported by Scipture. Either our hearts and our minds are set on God, or our hearts and minds are NOT set on God – there is no chance of having anything else.

Today begins a journey, and a mission. It’s a journey in becoming more like Christ, it’s a journey in becoming a leader, and it’s a journey in changing our culture’s worldview from unbiblical to biblical.

Whoa! Who are you talking about here? You started talking about Christians who need a kick in the pants and now you start talking about changing the culture. Are you saying that culture will be changed BY these “on-fire” Christians, or are you saying that culture = Christians.

Regenerate Our Culture is an organization with the goal of regenerating our nation’s worldview away from the post-modernism holding it and back to the Christian worldview it was first built on.

A history lesson is needed here: Before Post-modernism there was modernism, and modernism wasn’t exactly pro-Christian either. Modernism reigned from about the mid 19th century until around 1970 or so. Darwinism is a result of modernism, not post-modernism.

And I’ll take a chance here and seriously question whether America was actually built on a “Christian worldview”. If you’re talking here about the Constitution then remember that God isn’t in it at all.

We believe that America is the most Godly nation on the face of the earth, but it can’t be denied that many in our nation have turned away from God in politics, religion, and their everyday lives. Our vision is to help bring about a positive change in these three important areas, and equip others to do the same.

Perhaps you need to read a bit of history. How about the unprovoked invasion of Haiti in the 1920s? The CIA-backed coup in Guatemala that toppled a democratically elected president and set up a dictatorship and started a civil war? Iranian democracy being shafted so that the CIA sould set the Shah in place… thus setting the scene for a rise of Islamic Fundamentalism in the 1970s?

America is NOT the most godly nation in the world. According to statistics from Barna, 7% – SEVEN PERCENT – of Americans can be defined as “Evangelicals”. Thirty-five percent of Americans can be classed as “Born again Christians” – that’s 2 unbelievers for every “believer”. America is overwhelmingly a nation made up of non-Christians who are heading for a Christless eternity.

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=Topic&TopicID=8 and
http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=186

I sympathise with what you’re planning to do – but, seriously, you are choosing to fight the wrong battle, using the instruments that God has not chosen to use.

If you want America to be regenerated – literally being born again – then America needs to hear the gospel. They don’t need Christians picketing abortion clinics or gay rights parades or fighting to remove darwinism from schools – that’s not preaching the gospel.

I see movements like Justice Sunday, Focus on the Family and others as being totally useless. It’s a minority trying to bend the majority to their way. Politically and socially it just won’t work.

The only way to reduce abortion is to spread the gospel – telling people about Christ and watching the Holy Spirit work in their lives as they come before Christ in repentance and faith. With the Holy Spirit regenerating their minds and hearts, they will see how bad abortion is and they will be prevented from doing it.

The only way to reduce homosexuality is to spread the gospel. Again, the Holy Spirit changing people’s hearts.

You can’t do it the other way around. People’s sinful behaviour cannot change by modifying and enforcing the law to be more biblical. They have to know Christ first before their sinful behaviour changes.

You might like to seriously check out 1 Corinthians 5.9-13 and ask yourself these questions as a result of reading it: What sort of people should we confront about their sin? How should we relate to unbelievers who sin? Who should we judge? WHo does God judge?

And remember, America is not “The church”

Thanks Alex!

Sorry about that! It seems like your signup didn’t work for some reason – I’m adding you right now