I’m glad you agree with me on some points!

With regard to the whole “Where do you draw the line?” issue… this is what I observe:

Jesus set the standard for us. By dining with the tax collectors, he set that as a standard as something for us which we must see as not optional. That sort of thing echoes his command to go out and evangelise to the lost. It forms part of our responsibility in fulfilling that command.

Movies are, however, entirely optional. From your perspective, surely you can watch war documentaries instead of watching movies? Movies display sin in order to entertain, which is surely a problem. War documentaries and history programs are there to educate and sould automatically send us to our knees to pray for people suffering in the real world.

When I want to go out and watch a movie, I ask myself “David, what are your motives for watching this movie?”

If my motives and the movie are not in conformity to the following principles laid down by Ryle in Holiness, then I will not watch the movie:

> Value everything and place and company, just in proportion as it draws you nearer to God.
> Follow after purity of heart. Dread all filthiness and uncleanness of spirit, and seek to avoid all things that might draw you into it. Know your own heart is like tinder and diligently keep clear of the sparks of temptation. Who shall dare to talk of strength when David can fall?
> Holiness is the habit of agreeing in God’s judgment, hating what He hates, loving what He loves, and measuring everything in this world by the standard of His Word. He who most entirely agrees with God, he is the most holy man.
> Anything that may potentially cause me to stumble.
> Anything which does not bring God glory and me joy.
> Anything that may potentially dull my spirit

Ok, now with regard to the dulling of the spirit, this is my take on that: In light of 1 Corinthians 10:31, if anything causes me to not be able to give glory to God - i.e. it causes my mind to focus on earthly things; causes me to feel a distance from God (basically in effect, causes me to commit many sins of omission) - which the vast majority of movies do to me, then it is not just something which must be removed - bit should be avoided at all costs.

Dear brother, the reason why I am so terribly earnest about this issue and principle is because I feel it is of vast importance in bringing revival to this planet. I feel that this whole thing is an outflow of the bigger problem of worliness among Christians - which is grieving the Spirit. Please do not misinterprest the direct nature of ths question, but have you ever considered that you might form part of the problem? What steps have you taken to fix the problem in your own life, if you have observed a problem?

I’m also enjoying the discussion!

Dave

PS - I too am around swearing for about 9 hours a day. Since my perspective and heart has changed on this entire issue… my sensitivity to swearing has increased 100 fold - and it causes my thoughts to go heavenward and seek the Lord’s comfort. I would encourage you to consider why it is a good thing to become desensitized to swearing?

Oh dear, that’s not what I meant. O:-) I actually made a similiar mistake this week…someone wrote a post in which I agreed with 99%, but I wrote a comment debating the 1% and forgot to say that I agreed with the rest. O:-) I think the same thing happened here. So my apologies.

Yes, I definitely think we should sharpen our ability to be more “in tune” with the Holy Spirit; and I believe that as we do that, we will begin to draw away from sin, and find it more and more repulsive, the more we draw closer to God.

“I agree that we must be in the world - but we must never be of the world. We must “dine with the tax collectors” as Jesus did. There are, however optional things which can be avoided - such as most movies etc which dull the spirit.”

But didn’t Jesus have the “option” to dine with the tax collectors and sinners? Could He not have refused? Where do you draw the line? IMO, Jesus went and dined with them, because He considered the benefits of doing it (reaching out to their souls) to be greater than the cost (socializing with sinners). (If it sounds like I am making this into a formula, I apologize…one thing they taught us in engineering is the “cost-benefit” ratio. :D) But that does not mean that He condoned their actions by any means. I find it to be the same with many movies. I watched “We Were Soldiers” to help prepare me for combat. I feel that the benefit of that outweighs the cost (a little language). (Alghough, if you have a language filter on your TV, that takes care of it. :D) For a more practical example…if I have the option of performing extra training with my unit (and thus hearing more swearing, etc.) or staying back at my dorm and reading a book, is it wrong for me to *choose* the extra training? And if not, how is that any different from watching a movie (for the benefits) that contains some language?

I guess I am wondering this…how does it dull your spirit? (That’s a real question, not a “prove it” attack. :D)

Also, just to make sure we are on the same page…the vast majority of the movies that I watch are all military-related (exception: I did see Finding Nemo :D). (Which means there aren’t that many. :D) I don’t watch the average film that Hollywood makes…when I look at the movies that my college theater is playing for the semester, usually I will only find one, maybe two, that I like (this semester the one was Narnia). So…most of the movies out there I dont watch; and most of the “bad stuff” in the movies that I *do* watch is swearing, which I am around all the time and thus am used to.

And I don’t think you are unbiblical; I think it is better to be more strict in that regard than not; I just don’t agree with you on how “strict” to be.

BTW I am really enjoying this discussion. You most definitely are not “holier than art thou” or condecending, so thanks!

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. James 1:27

Some troubling thoughts came to mind when I first read your reply - which were echoed by my brother when he read this reply and said: “It seems like this guy is trying to protect something”.

Now, I don’t know if you are trying to protect something, and if you are, what it is. I won’t pass any judgement, but will just share my concern so that you can perhaps search your heart to see if there is any hidden wickedness which is impeding your relationship with our marvellous Lord

I was concerned that you did not rejoice with me and agree that we should do all we can to sharpen our spirits to be more attune to the Holy Spirit’s working (which is the opposite of a dulled spirit). I thought also that you would agree that we should be pursuing a sensitivity toward sin. If we are not sensitive toward sin, how will we then walk in step with the Holy Spirit as we are commanded?

I agree that we must be in the world - but we must never be of the world. We must “dine with the tax collectors” as Jesus did. There are, however optional things which can be avoided - such as most movies etc which dull the spirit. This verse has become very special to me:

Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. Romans 12:2

Dear brother, I’m not here to “ruin your fun” as it were. I’m not here trying to be a dogmatic fundamentalist. I’m not trying to set rules which are burdensome and hard to bear. All I can tell you is this:

Through my actions, I have tested and approved that the will of God is “good, pleasing and perfect” - through experience. Through all these supposed “restrictions”, I have come to a state of great happiness. To deny myself so many things, because I love Him who died for me and you, brings me great and unspeakable joy. I can only tell you these things and plead with you to search your heart - because I know deep within my soul that this is God’s will for His children.

Perhaps you misunderstood all that I had said - and hence your comments?

Perhaps also, I am delusional and being entirely unbiblical here. If so, please point out my error with appropriate Scriptures.

Something that struck me like a freight train while reading Holiness by Ryle yesterday was a single sentence that he said: “Holiness is happiness

Warm blessings,
Dave

First, if we are to define sin biblically, we need to begin with the ten commandments, a summary of the moral law.

Second, the third commandment is the commandment about the holy name of God, and that a believer, saved by grace should not take that name in vain. A true believer, has the law written on their heart, that is, they love the name of God, and worship that name and desire it be praised by all men.

Third, Christianity is a matter of the heart and will and mind changed by grace and now desiring to glorify God and love and keep His commandments. If in the workplace, the men or women I work blaspheme God’s name, this grieves my soul, like Lot living in Sodom.

Fourthly, why would I knowingly choose to go to a movie (it’s easy to know ahead of time if there is the using of God’s name in vain) in which God’s name is used in vain, and to choose to hear that which grieves my heart as a Christian. Why would I willingly place myself in the hearing of swearing and cursing and blasphemy? You see, many are looking for a verse here or there to tell them what to do, what movie to go to or not to go to. Much of the guidance we receive in the Christian life through the Scriptures is through our heart of love to God’s will or commandments. Why would a Christian choose to put themselves in the hearing of God’s name being profaned? Is this not the question, brothers and sisters, we should be asking ourselves? WEll, maybe this is of some help to the discussion. I hope.

OK, regarding the post you asked me to comment on….

I guess I would point out that, when you say worldliness = conforming to the pattern of the world, that one must be carful how it is defined. After all, would not eating and drinking with tax collectors, sinners, prostitutes, etc. fit that view? But Jesus did it…and brought them into the Kingdom.

Also, when you say “dulling of the spirit” and “lack of appreciation of the sinfulness of sin,” I am unclear on that too. (Illustration: Living with the cadets has made me somewhat immune to hearing language…cuz I hear it all the time. Yet I certainly don’t use it - or support anyone using it, for that matter. My mind has been affected so as to ignore/overlook the language…but that doesnt mean I use or endorse it. So how would the above statements apply there?)

You’re so right… better to be safe than sorry! That’s why I’ve been reminding myself to err on the side of being too strict when it comes to movies and other activities which are popular by the world’s standards. I can say that even though I’m being ridiculously strict, I’m finding great joy in it all! I am seeing less and less the need to become less strict, and more and more the importance and relevance of the Puritan way of life.

I’ll be checking out your blog too! I’m really busy though (university work and building another site)… so not much time to write stuff for my blog.

Must be off!

Dave

You’ve totally misunderstood me :):

So are you saying that movies are not sins of commission, but of ommission?

Not at all. What I’m saying is that there are sins of commission in movies, and of course sins of omission. What I was referring to is the fact that when one becomes worldly, one is always committing sins of ommission, and possibly sins of commission, depending on the situation.

If I understand you correctly, that would mean that there is nothing specifically sinful about movies, except for the fact that the time used watching them could be used for more spiritual activities?

From my previous explanation, you can see that obviously I don’t maintain this.

It looks like this logic could be applied to pretty much anything - such as outdoor recreation, reading secular books, etc.

What I am saying is that if it’s not going to bring glory to God, then forsake it: “Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.” (I Corinthians 10:31)

This is the Puritan perspective… and is precisely why they warned against concert halls. One Puritan said that he avoided concert halls because it dulled his spirit. I think also, the great thing about the Puritan perspective on this is the fact that they didn’t just forgo those type of activities - they replaced them with profitable activities. That’s exactly why Barry York’s 10th point spoke about doing something more profitable if it can possibly be done (i.e. something which reflects one’s absolute love for God - hence his quotation of Matthew 22:37).

As to the Puritans, no, I’m sure I don’t agree with all of their theology, but I’m certainly not against them

Hehe… Alex, you didn’t answer the question. Do you agree or disagree with the principle of their stance on concert halls?

Thanks again for the reply

Dave